Alignment headaches

Not 100% sure where to ask for assistance, but have a persistent alignment issue I cannot seem to overcome.

I have a 100w chinese laser, and am having alignment issues on the 3rd mirror at the position farthest away from the tube. 3rd hand machine that’s taken a lot of work to get semi working. Diagram below.

I seem to be able to get Mirror 1, Mirror 2, and three corners over the cutting bed with mirror 3 to hit the mirror / annulus at dead pretty much dead centre. The position furthest away from the tube (diagonal across the bed from mirror 1) always hits high. Frustratingly, if I adjust mirror 2 down slightly, then it mucks up the other corner on the same side of the machine.

I’ve tried shimming the gantry on that corner of the machine, but that does not seem to be the answer, and just results in further alignment issues.

The gantry is square, and properly set in place - in fact I’ve probably had it in/out about 20 times now trying to solve this issue over many many months. Persistently I get to this same corner and have the same issue.

If anyone has seen this before, I’d love to hear your ideas on how to solve. I’m wondering whether tube alignment could be an issue - though my tube mounts don’t seem to be adjustable, and being a cheap chinese machine they’re not so easily replaced with off the shelf part from cloudray etc.

This is the classic “fourth corner” problem with plenty of discussion:

https://forum.lightburnsoftware.com/search?q=%22fourth%20corner%22%20order%3Alatest

Reasonable people differ on the solution, but my take is that we all align Mirror 1 on targets at Mirror 2 and declare victory. The problem is that a slight misalignment at Mirror 2 turns into a big misalignment at Mirror 3 with another meter of path length to amplify the error.

So you get everything lined up “perfectly” as you have done for the other three corners, move the head to the front right corner, and adjust Mirror 1 very very very slightly to tweak the position at Mirror 3. This won’t change anything at Mirror 2 because the path length is so small, but it fixes the problem at Mirror 3.

The gotcha is that everybody cranks in too much adjustment at Mirror 1, thus wrecking the alignment at Mirror 2, and concludes what I just said is totally wrong.

A little more detail on my blog, with a fairly nasty misalignment:

Something of an overview:

Try it and see. :grin:

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Thank you very much! I’ll give this a go. There’s a huge difference between the height at top right vs bottom right, so hopefully this doesn’t affect the top right too much. It’s a solid 10mm+ different.

Those targets are nice. Self made?

That sounds like a lot, but the long “lever arm” to the front right lets a tiny adjustment of Mirror 1 have a big effect out there.

It will take some fiddling, so don’t expect perfection on the first pass. You’re only adjusting a single mirror by a little bit, so it’s reversible if it doesn’t work out.

They may be somewhat over the top in terms of complexity, what with using Print and Cut to align the printed sheets for cutting: :grin:

The geometry is on GitHub as an SVG, so you can PnC them or use Dot Mode for perfect (albeit slooow) alignment.

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Jump point: you don’t have a problem with M1, M2, or offset. Your XY plane is not a plane, it’s warped because the 4 corners of the left and right linear rails are not on the same plane so these rails aren’t actually parallel. The gantry twists as it jogs down the Y.

Background logic: OK let’s say you have a significant error in M1 and didn’t realize it. It’s not parallel to Y. Then say M2 got adjusted to straighten it out so it’s parallel on X after M2 but that would only work for one Y, like the top edge.

Jog Y to the bottom and the M1 error will offset the spot. As long as it still hits the mirror, M2 will be correcting the angle error of M1 so it will still be parallel to X, the spot it hits M3 at will have an offset error but since it was adjusted to be parallel at the top it should be parallel at the bottom, so the bottom left and bottom right will have the same offset error. You’d fix this by correcting M1 then M2- but this is NOT your prob.

The next “weird” situation is where you adjust M1/M2 to hit the same spot on M3 on all 4 corners- that is a offset error, and there’s multiple factors there- tube height, tube angle, but what many people don’t see is that M1’s mounting location can also be a problem. You correct with the tube mounts and/or the M1 placement.

This is not your problem. You do not have an offset error.

The next “weird” case is the linkage of the left and right timing belts is wrong. The M1/M2 can be adjusted to hit the center of M3, but when you try to cut a square, you get a parallelogram. You’d fix that by correcting the linkage rod in back. You may need to loosen the gantry’s joints on the left and right bearing trucks for it to take effect and retighten.

But you do not have this problem. You don’t have any of that.

Jump point:

What you have, sir, is a warped XY plane. It cannot be corrected with M1/M2/tube offset/rear linkage rod.

Picture the left and right rails. They’re probably straight. The X gantry is at the correct right angle to Y. There can’t be an error where the bottom of the Y rails are not the same spacing on top and bottom when they were bolted to the frame. If so, the rigid gantry would move at the top of the bed but jam when you jog down.

But… what if the frame itself isn’t square? What would it look like if I had perfectly squared Y rails when viewed from above- but, then, mischievously put a 2mm thick washer under just ONE of the Y rail corners, say bottom right. When viewed from above, it’s still square, but warped in Z. OK, that’s insidious.

If my system was perfectly built and aligned to begin with and I added that 2mm washer to the bottom right, there would be very little effect on top left, top right, bottom left. Those hit M3 on center. But the bottom right would basically be hitting M3 2mm low.

If I had added washers under all 4 corners, there’s no warpage, that’s just a new tube offset. If I added a washer to the top AND bottom right, or bottom left AND bottom right, neither of those cases are warped. The std mirror procedure already handles that case.

But when I added the washer to just the bottom right, then the y rails are parallel when viewed from the top and parallel if you squat down and view from the front. But if the machine were transparent and you looked from the side, you’d see they’re not parallel there. The gantry will twist slightly as it jogs down the Y, but it’s flexible enough on this scale to do that without jamming.

OK, my case isn’t transparent, what can I actually see? You could align M1/M2 to hit M3 center on top left, top right, bottom left, but with the washer under the bottom of the right Y-rail, that corner rises up and it will hit M3 LOW in that corner alone.

What’s actually bending here to allow this? Well, the M2 mirror is typically mounted on the body of the gantry so if the gantry twists while jogging, the angle of M2 twists with it. If this is a common Hywinn-type linear rail, those do have a small amount of slack in the bearing blocks on the roll axis. It’s shifting on the roll axis.

Bonus understanding- what if I started with a perfect system then put a washer under both the lower right and upper left corners? It may seem like a different case, but it’s not. You’d start doing the adjustment on M1/M2 and find the tube is offset, lift the tube by one washer height to get it centered on the top left, get M1 parallel, adjust M2 to hit center M3 in top right, then… darn it, why is the bottom right corner hitting low and nothing else?

You cannot fix this with M1/M2/tube offset at all. You must square the frame!

First off, this can happen JUST from the leveling feet if your frame can flex under its own weight. And you can fix it JUST by adjusting the leveling feet if it flexes like that. But if that’s the case, look the the building. If you’re on a wooden pier-and-beam floor and not a concrete slab, this is going to be a problem every time the temp or humidity changes, or you add a heavy bookcase somewhere.

Most laser frames are stiff enough that they don’t shift. If you shorten up one leveler out of plane with the others, it just unload and float in the air, or the opposite corner will lift.

That’s the more likely case, and the only real fix is “shimming”. Measure the bottom right error as precisely as you can. Say the bottom right is hitting 3mm high. OK, easy, loosen the bottom of the right Y rail, add a 3mm washer or whatever and tighten it back down there.

But say bottom right is 3mm low. Shims can only raise. We don’t need to raise all 3 of the other corners. These should work: 3mm shim on bottom left or top right, OR 1.5mm shim on both bottom left and top right. No shim on bottom right or top left.

You then need to make sure the tops and bottoms of the Y are the correct spacing when screwed back down. Before tightening either top corner, jog the gantry to the top, that forces it to offset to the correct spacing as you tighten. Either bottom corner, jog the gantry to the bottom. When all 4 corners are tight make sure the gantry moves top/bottom freely and does not bind. Best to do this unpowered and push by hand.

You MUST adjust the timing of the Z-lift screws to level the bed against the new XY gantry plane. Because there’s a risk you could have clearance above the honeycomb on one side but the crash into the honeycomb on the other.
Then restart your M1/M2 adjustment, fix offset if present, check for parallelogramming too (rear linkage rod timing).

Pray you have chosen the correct placement and magnitude of the shims. Otherwise you may need to iterate it all over again.

After a while it becomes either Zen or rage-quit. :person_in_lotus_position:

Given the whole beam alignment dance is a compromise, a final mirror tweak may put the scorches Close Enough™ to be workable among all the angle / offset / warp errors.

It’s certainly easier than un-bending the frame! :grin:

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Well, the most basic takeaway is that if you do your M1/M2 alignment and only one corner is high/low, you need to shim.

If the odd corner is hitting M3 high, you add a shim under that corner OR the diagonally opposite one, of approx the height of the error. Or both, each with a shim of approx half the error.

If it’s hitting M3 low in that one corner, you add a shim to the adjacent corner horizontally or vertically. Or a half shim on both.

Which corner becomes the “one that doesn’t agree with the others” is just a matter of your alignment order. You can take the the same warped frame and align M1/M2 so it’s the same on M3 on every corner but top left, or top right, or bottom left.

Actually if you have one hitting M3 low, the best procedure may be to change your M1/M2 alignment sequence so that it’s one of the horizontally/vertically adjacent corners that is the odd one out, because that will convert it to an error where it’s hitting high on M3. Since shims can only raise a corner, this is better. You can loosen that one corner and shim to raise M3 so that it catches the beam at the center- or, really, it’s not necessarily center, it’s about having the same offset as adjacent corners.

And really you can identify the warpage after aligning M1 and M2 and finding one corner is the odd man out- if you see offset at this stage too, that would appear as being off center the same way on 3 of 4 corners. You don’t want to try to adjust the offset at this point. You shim one corner up to make where it hits M3 consistent in all 4 first, even if it’s not the center of M3. Then fix offset. Because you can create (or fix) an offset when you add a shim, so it’s pointless to try to address offset before unwarping because that process will change the offset.

Thanks for the comprehensive reply @Dannym.

I’ve been down the shimming path for the past 6 months or so, trying the same corner and different corners, and it’s that rage-quite frustration which @ednisley has mentioned that’s led to this post.

The gantry system is some cheap aluminum profile that’s thread tapped and screwed together twice at each corner. Easy to get out of horizontal square, but easy enough to fix. What I cannot reconcile is whether it’s out of vertical square.

I’ll give the solution by @ednisley a go first, because it’s cheap time wise.

And honestly, if I can prove that the gantry is warped in that corner, I’m pretty likely to rip the whole gantry out of the machine and leave it out at this stage, then rebuild a new one where I can guarantee it’s square. From a mental health and time point of view, it’s that or sell the machine.

Well all, excuse the poor language, but holy excrement, the 1st mirror advice worked.

My alignment is not dead centre of the annulus in front of the third mirror, but the spot location is generally very consistent - within 2-3 mm - at all 4 corners. And it only took about 15 - 20 minutes of careful bit by bit stuffing around.

I still think there is a small amount of frame warp, but its survivable.

This image is markup of Top Left, Bottom right eyc, using the pulse setting on 10% on 1.5mm balsa. The pinhole is absolutely tiny, pehaps 1/4 mm or less. Nor sure what that is in inches, but its very small. The total spot size is perhaps 1/2 mm.

Zen mode in full effect! :grin:

Glad it all worked out …