Machine advice for relative newbie

[moors7 (Jordy Moors)]

@jkwilborn

I can also beg to differ, not being there was not the cause of the fire, it was the honeycomb that started it.

Being unattended was only a resulting contributing factor to the accident.

Mind you that I said the reason the thing burned down was because it was left unattended. Being there won’t stop fires from starting, but you sure as hell can put them out a lot better than if you’re not there (in time).

The honeycomb didn’t start the fire either, the Machine-That-Burns-Things Started the fire. Did the honeycomb made it easier? MAYBE. Was it the cause? NO.

If you leave the machine unattended for long enough that it can burn down beyond saving, you’ve left it unattended for too long.

Stay in the same room, and have measures in place to prevent/stop fires from getting out of control. Want to leave the room? Pause the machine, simple as that.

You can’t plame a piece of oddly shaped metal for starting a fire. It’s the human’s fault who doesn’t know how to operate their equipment, nothing else’s.

FWIW, I run knife slats on my 24x48", and only ~4 of them. Sh*t catches fire all the time, because that’s what the machine is made to do.

@jkwilborn

There, most likely, would never have been a fire at all without the honeycomb bed.

This is dangerous, as people who haven’t got a clue will rip out their honeycomb, and take a nice long walk while their machine gladly burns their house down. With AND without honeycomb…

@jkwilborn

If you can show me a good use for one of these honeycomb beds, I’d love to know.

Cutting tiny pieces you don’t want to fall through to get lost, or burnt. Or better still, tilt in their hole, so the laser can jam into it and cause… fires.

For someone who claims to have only used theirs for a day, I find it odd that’d you’d give out such false (and simultaneously dangerous) advice, given the lack of experience on the matter.

But hey, this is the internet, so who cares, right?

[MountaineerTradepost (John)]

I dunno Ive used my honeycomb on my diode for months and it made a big difference in clean underside of cuts. I immediately .noticed an issue with each honeycomb cell acting as a mini cluster bomb where the syngas would build up and become ignited by the laser, literally making micro explosions and scattering the small pieces all over. I then raised the honeycomb off the bottom so the gas had a place to go and wasnt trapped between the bottom of machine and bottom of material. Like everything, there are useage guidelines…some are implied, some written…some learned. I have a honeycomb bed on my onyx as well and it is raised off the bottom like 4 inches, and it comes off very clean without any issues. The honeycomb cells are smaller so not many objects fall inside them. My guess is a lot.of the fires are caused by lack of cleaning and allowing the creosote or goop build up on the bottom plate or inside the honeycomb itself…this acts as a very energy dense additive for any fire.
I am curious what other peoppe are cutting to have fires all the time, Ive only had one and I was cutting tempered hardboard at a ridiculously slow speed and it would straight light up like a match, only the air assist put it out…was incredibly dangerous so I stopped cutting it.

[jkwilborn (Jack Wilborn)]

@moors7

claims to have only used theirs for a day

Doesn’t take a air flow phd and weeks of use to see the debris going where you don’t want it. This was the main reason for swapping it out.

One of the most important aspects of a laser, imho is the air flow. Just because they fill up with debris and become dangerously flammable was less worrisome.

Nowhere did I recommend that they replace the bed and leave it unattended.

I couldn’t figure out where you were going for a good use of these…?

We try to make suggestions that help people stay safe, but I expect them to have a little common sense.

[bernd.dk (Bernd)]

@jkwilborn

There, most likely, would never have been a fire at all without the honeycomb bed.

It is a little strange that this misinformation survives all the discussions we have had regarding this subject.
Here once again, It is the gases that are formed when cutting wood, acrylic and similar materials, which, due to the precise oxygen-gas mixture, explode. In the case of natural gas, the mixing ratio is approx. 20 parts air and 1 part gas. With 22:1 or 20:2 mixtures, no combustion/explosion occurs. The same applies, just with a different mixing ratio, in our laser machines. Gases collect in the hives and explode - if there is not enough ventilation through the honeycomb bed. It is a fact and applies only to the gases. If your honeycomb, machine or extraction system is very dirty and soaked in tar, you will get a fire in any case, at one point or another.
I have used honeycomb for my modest production for over 5 years, it is dry and relatively clean and I have never had a fire in the machine, but experienced minor explosions when there was not enough air support and extraction.

Honeycomb is safe when used correctly, just like the laser machine itself.

One thing that is fatal and I have seen twice, is to place a honeycomb directly on a substrate such as steel or mdf board, the gas gets trapped and explodes/burns.

[moors7 (Jordy Moors)]

@jkwilborn

Doesn’t take a air flow phd and weeks of use to see the debris going where you don’t want it. This was the main reason for swapping it out.

That you don’t use it for practical reasons is fair enough. Not arguing that.
To claim, however, that a honeycomb is the main or sole cause of any laser fire, based on that very limited experience, and likely lots of online misinformation, is a bit of a stretch.

@jkwilborn

Nowhere did I recommend that they replace the bed and leave it unattended.

But you implied that it’d be fine, though, with claims like these:

@jkwilborn

There, most likely, would never have been a fire at all without the honeycomb bed.

And claiming the honeycomb is the issue, rather than being unattentive enough to let the fire spread beyond saving (which takes a while…).

@jkwilborn

Didn’t burn down his shop, it was the honeycomb that caught fire and even being that close they couldn’t save the machine.

@jkwilborn

We try to make suggestions that help people stay safe, but I expect them to have a little common sense.

This is why I argue this so vehemently. Have you met the average laser owner? Many of them wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between “laser printer” or “laser cutter” (thanks Slowforge!).

Some poor sod is going to yank out the honeycomb and leave the thing alone, because he figured your claims proved that that was the only thing that could cause fires. NEVER assume common sense, or any sense for that matter, on the internet… (Especially if the results could be hazardous)

[jkwilborn (Jack Wilborn)]

I appreciate that you use and love your honeycomb. Many people do.

I, however see no advantage to using one, compared to my steel plate. We know there is a greater chance of fire. It’s like these are kindling.

With the honeycomb, I could smell the operation and see lines on my work. With a steel plate, no smell and no lines. A plate is easy to wipe off with solvent and a rag not so with a honeycomb bed.

It clearly blocks good ventilation through the machine. Is difficult to clean and is a bit more difficult to use, as mine was aluminum so magnets were out of the question.

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The plate in mine causes the gases to condense pretty fast and reside mostly on the plate. I don’t have any minor gas explosions like the rest of you seem to have experienced.

I also use the plate to hold jigs. A honeycomb bed would make it unusable for this, at least to have repeatability when positioning a jig. Thought I’d break this up with a photo

@moors7

Cutting tiny pieces you don’t want to fall through to get lost, or burnt. Or better still, tilt in their hole, so the laser can jam into it and cause… fires.

I guess I misunderstood you, your point escapes me if this is supposed to be an advantage? Please clarify or explain…?

Do any of you know of a fire that destroyed a machine, were the honeycomb bed wasn’t a major player?

I’m still looking for an advantage to using one of these …? It surely isn’t ventilation.

I would add a notice about stupidity and common sense, but it would go over the heads of the intended target.

[moors7 (Jordy Moors)]

@jkwilborn

I guess I misunderstood you, your point escapes me if this is supposed to be an advantage? Please clarify or explain…?

@jkwilborn

I’m still looking for an advantage to using one of these …? It surely isn’t ventilation.

If you use knife beds, like I usually do, parts can fall through, or worse, fall partially trough with collisions as a result.
A (fine enough) honeycomb would prevent that, whilst providing ample support.
If your honeycomb is too large, or your parts too small, you’ve got the same issues. Sure.

I’m not saying honeycombs are perfect, or you should always be using one. Far from it. But they have their uses.

@jkwilborn

Do any of you know of a fire that destroyed a machine, were the honeycomb bed wasn’t a major player?

Yes, literally all of them. Correlation vs causation. Just because there was a honeycomb in a burnt machine does not mean the honeycomb caused it. With that logic, the rubber belts are WAY more dangerous, because ALL burnt lasers have belts! They couldn’t have burned without them, for the laser would’ve never gotten to the material. Best to take out all belts!

I’ve had steel sheets as well. They’d get dirty and sticky wayy too quickly, and contaminate the bottom of the piece. The smoke has to go somewhere, so that’d stick to the bottom as well. If the part is resting directly on the plate, there’s zero airflow there, which is also sh*t.
So you’ve got to raise the parts with scraps so you get airflow and the back doesn’t touch the dirty plates. Then you get parts falling partially through and getting burnt by a close pass, or tilting up causing collisions.

No system is flawless.

The only thing I absolutely disagree with is this unfounded argument that honeycombs causes fires, because they don’t. They might make it easier, but sh*t will burn either way.

[RalphU (RU)]

I agree with @berainlb. I have an Universal Laser Systems VLS6.60 with an RF tube and a 1.5 lens. I primarily cut paper and do not have or need air assist. The blower motor for exhausting fumes is a bit loud, like a vacuum cleaner. The machine isn’t that noisy. There are 2 fans that keep the tube cool. When I cut wood and acrylic on my honeycomb bed, I cut in 2 passes and I have never had a fire, but I am in the laser room when it is running.

[digibum (Matej Krhin)]

I couldn’t agree with you more. I have an Xtool S1, Lightburn support is extremely poor. Even the functions for which Xtool has instructions on its website simply do not work. I would happily use XCS, but I do much, much more with Lightburn.

[MikeyH (Mike Hembrey)]

@digibum

Lightburn support is extremely poor

You failed to include that xTool refuses to share information with Lightburn (although I think current negotiations may change this). Those instructions do not include how to write code for the controller. Lightburn cannot write the code if they do not know what they are writing it for. Guessing is just not a good business model. Ruida controllers have much greater support in Lightburn because they saw the benefit of cooperation.

[jkwilborn (Jack Wilborn)]

@MikeyH

the benefit of cooperation.

Whose cooperating with whom ?

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I’d be surprised if Lightburn developers got anything from the Chinese… That just isn’t the way they normally do business.

[MikeyH (Mike Hembrey)]

@jkwilborn

Whose cooperating with whom ?

Sorry, I have no details. It was casually mentioned by a person I trust to be in the know.

And yeah, I don’t see much chance of success either.

[Heatsign (Heatsign1)]

If you’re new to laser machines, you can start with a simple, reliable machine like a K40 or an Ortur Laser Master. They’re affordable and great for learning. Once you’re comfortable, you can upgrade with a Cohesion 3D board for better control and features.